Comments on: Having Time for Caring http://christcentred.org/2008/05/18/having-time-for-caring/ Helping Ordinary People Keep Christ Central Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:35:14 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Tim Wilson http://christcentred.org/2008/05/18/having-time-for-caring/#comment-237 Tim Wilson Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:09:14 +0000 http://christcentred.wordpress.com/?p=81#comment-237 Dear paarsurrey, Firstly, my great apologies for not having responded/commented earlier. Busy week. Thank you for commenting and thank you for the gracious Spirit it is in. I have chatted to a lot of Muslims before and look forward (I hope) to many more with yourself. Having said that, my friend, I could not agree with you any less. If Jesus did not die on the cross you and I are destined for hell. Whatever laws we try to follow, whether it be the Jewish Torah or the 5 Pillars, we will miss the mark some time. If we cannot keep these laws how can a holy God stand us? He cannot. He will not reward those who do evil. Jesus died on the cross to redeem a people for himself. It is scandalous that he died a cursed death yet he did. It is even more scandalous that he was God. YHWH died on the cross for the salvation of those who trust in him. Is this not sinful that God should die? No, it is infinitely loving. The God of the Bible demonstrates his love in actions throughout the Bible (saving his people from Egypt for example). So he does here. He loves us so much he will take our punishment. "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation [a sacrifice turning away God's anger] for our sins." (1 John 4:10) Now I'm sure, you assumed that was my view. Where should our debate run next? I think the big difference is our understanding on two points: <b>1.</b> You think Jesus is a righteous person and not YHWH's equal, God in himself. <b>2.</b> You believe Jesus did not die on the cross. Let me suggest two things that I would like to discuss with you further. <b>1.</b> The evidence in the Old Testament that Jesus is God (as I assume you believe most of the NT is tainted by Paul's error. Whilst I disagree, to prove Paul is true I am happy to use the evidence of the Old Testament). <b>2.</b> We can't actually go back and see whether he died or not. I would argue that medically it is impossible to survive the abuse Jesus took on the cross, but I assume you would argue it is a miracle. Therefore the question really is would YHWH want to miraculously save Jesus from the cross. If he did want to, he is definitely able to. However if he doesn't want to save Jesus, he wouldn't save him. I again will show you from the Old Testament that he does not want to save Jesus. We can either continue this discussion in the comments here or we can discuss by email. Just click on the "Contact Me" button at the top of the page to contact me by email. I would have emailed myself, but there was no way to do so on your blog. Thank you for commenting I look forward to discussing this with you more. Tim Dear paarsurrey,

Firstly, my great apologies for not having responded/commented earlier. Busy week. Thank you for commenting and thank you for the gracious Spirit it is in. I have chatted to a lot of Muslims before and look forward (I hope) to many more with yourself.

Having said that, my friend, I could not agree with you any less.

If Jesus did not die on the cross you and I are destined for hell. Whatever laws we try to follow, whether it be the Jewish Torah or the 5 Pillars, we will miss the mark some time. If we cannot keep these laws how can a holy God stand us? He cannot. He will not reward those who do evil.

Jesus died on the cross to redeem a people for himself. It is scandalous that he died a cursed death yet he did. It is even more scandalous that he was God. YHWH died on the cross for the salvation of those who trust in him.

Is this not sinful that God should die? No, it is infinitely loving. The God of the Bible demonstrates his love in actions throughout the Bible (saving his people from Egypt for example). So he does here. He loves us so much he will take our punishment. “In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation [a sacrifice turning away God's anger] for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

Now I’m sure, you assumed that was my view. Where should our debate run next?

I think the big difference is our understanding on two points:

1. You think Jesus is a righteous person and not YHWH’s equal, God in himself.
2. You believe Jesus did not die on the cross.

Let me suggest two things that I would like to discuss with you further.

1. The evidence in the Old Testament that Jesus is God (as I assume you believe most of the NT is tainted by Paul’s error. Whilst I disagree, to prove Paul is true I am happy to use the evidence of the Old Testament).

2. We can’t actually go back and see whether he died or not. I would argue that medically it is impossible to survive the abuse Jesus took on the cross, but I assume you would argue it is a miracle. Therefore the question really is would YHWH want to miraculously save Jesus from the cross. If he did want to, he is definitely able to. However if he doesn’t want to save Jesus, he wouldn’t save him. I again will show you from the Old Testament that he does not want to save Jesus.

We can either continue this discussion in the comments here or we can discuss by email. Just click on the “Contact Me” button at the top of the page to contact me by email. I would have emailed myself, but there was no way to do so on your blog.

Thank you for commenting I look forward to discussing this with you more.

Tim

]]> By: paarsurrey http://christcentred.org/2008/05/18/having-time-for-caring/#comment-222 paarsurrey Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:02:09 +0000 http://christcentred.wordpress.com/?p=81#comment-222 Hi One may find the following discussion interesting on the issue of Jesus’ death on Cross or his no dying on it Scott Thong Says: July 11, 08 at vide http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/the-locked-tomb-mystery-whodunit/ and concludes: I do not know where you got your information from, but I contend that it is inferior to the logic and proof of my arguments. paarsurrey Says: The comment is awaiting moderation. July 11, 08 at Hi I respect your faith. I have read the write-up as contained in (http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/the-locked-tomb-mystery-whodunit/) the whole of it. In my opinion there is a difference between a myth and a miracle. One cannot understand a phenomenon fully unless one compares it with others writing on the subject.The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has explained it in detail with very sound arguments. Kindly read his book “Jesus in India” , written a hundred years ago and compare it with your views and you will know the truth for sure. It only requires a little research. The book “Jesus in India” can be accessed here freely: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html Kindly read the book so that we could discuss it further. There is no harm if other persons reading our posts join in the discussion. Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross; he was a righteous person, I love him. The myth (not the miracle) of Jesus dying on Cross was invented by Paul at Rome, when Jesus was in exile and alive in India. There is no mystery; if there was any, that has been solved by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 with a Word of revelation from GodAllahYHWH. Thanks I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim Hi
One may find the following discussion interesting on the issue of Jesus’ death on Cross or his no dying on it
Scott Thong Says:
July 11, 08 at vide http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/the-locked-tomb-mystery-whodunit/ and concludes:
I do not know where you got your information from, but I contend that it is inferior to the logic and proof of my arguments.
paarsurrey Says: The comment is awaiting moderation.
July 11, 08 at
Hi
I respect your faith.
I have read the write-up as contained in (http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/the-locked-tomb-mystery-whodunit/) the whole of it. In my opinion there is a difference between a myth and a miracle. One cannot understand a phenomenon fully unless one compares it with others writing on the subject.The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has explained it in detail with very sound arguments. Kindly read his book “Jesus in India” , written a hundred years ago and compare it with your views and you will know the truth for sure. It only requires a little research.
The book “Jesus in India” can be accessed here freely:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html
Kindly read the book so that we could discuss it further. There is no harm if other persons reading our posts join in the discussion. Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross; he was a righteous person, I love him.
The myth (not the miracle) of Jesus dying on Cross was invented by Paul at Rome, when Jesus was in exile and alive in India. There is no mystery; if there was any, that has been solved by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 with a Word of revelation from GodAllahYHWH.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

]]> By: Whatever You Do For The Least Of These… « m e a n d e r s http://christcentred.org/2008/05/18/having-time-for-caring/#comment-125 Whatever You Do For The Least Of These… « m e a n d e r s Sun, 18 May 2008 12:24:15 +0000 http://christcentred.wordpress.com/?p=81#comment-125 [...] Whatever You Do For The Least Of These… Focus on what Jesus wanted us to do by reading Having Time For Caring. [...] [...] Whatever You Do For The Least Of These… Focus on what Jesus wanted us to do by reading Having Time For Caring. [...]

]]> By: graceMark http://christcentred.org/2008/05/18/having-time-for-caring/#comment-124 graceMark Sun, 18 May 2008 12:19:10 +0000 http://christcentred.wordpress.com/?p=81#comment-124 I couldn't agree more. This concept, I believe, is the central focus of what Christ intended for his followers, not just a peripheral detail. I couldn’t agree more. This concept, I believe, is the central focus of what Christ intended for his followers, not just a peripheral detail.

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